Ben Abrahamson [https://www.
The theory of siyasa shar'iyya, statecraft in accordance with the shari'a, which was developed by Ibn Taymiyya (1328 CE) and further elaborated by his pupil Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (1350CE) had a great impact on Ottoman legal and political theory and was the starting point for Islamic legal and political thinkers. The decision to constitutionalize Islamic law in late twentieth-century Egypt represents a commitment to the idea that state law must be a modern analogue of siyasa shar'iyya.
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Siyasa literally means ‘statecraft’ or ‘governance.’ The promulgation of rules, the selection of rules of decision for courts and the decision to enforce a particular legal norm all fall under the rubric of siyasa. A ruler’s policies and governmental actions (his siyasa) might naturally be based on non-Islamic considerations. Shar'iyya is the adjectival form of shari'ah describes something that is related to or consistent with the shari'a. Siyasa shar'iyya thus means ‘governance (including legislation and adjudication) in conformity with the shari'a.'
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Mahmoud Abo AlSamen
However; modern Egypt is based on secular laws except in family affairs.
Constitutionalizing in the Arab world has led to the marginalizing the Shariah Law..
I don't think we are governed by the Shariah law..
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Ahmad Al Segari
Our Hudud, islamic punishment is similar with the Torah laws, did Jews practice the laws or already abandon it?
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Ben Abrahamson
@Ahmad Al Segari, religious Jews continue to practice Rabbinic law which is based on Torah law. However except for family law it is voluntary, and the state often tries to reduce it to strictly ceremonial purposes. The issues of halachah and shari'ah in a modern state are very much the same.
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Ahmad Al Segari
what is punishment for adultery in the Israel? or adultery is not an illegal act..
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Dan Jacobs
Ahmad Al Segari - the Torah punishment for adultary is stoning however the oral law which is similar to the hadith made the punishment only applicable with two qualified witnesses who warned the woman beforehand so in practice the capital punishment was rarely carried out. Nowadays there is not a Jewish (halachic) court with the power to give the death penalty.
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Dawah N English
'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' - I am all for 'modernization' except when it comes to the laws of the Creator of the Universe - we were given free will to see when we are obedient, the Mercy of Allah in our choices, but all we use free will for is to be disobedient - Subhana'Allah Allah Protect us from ourselves...ameen....
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Ben Abrahamson
@Dan Jacobs, We must be careful when comparing systems, even concepts as fundamental as "law" and "punishment" which today are largely understood in terms of Roman civil law and its derivatives, differ in certain ways from their Rabbinic or Islamic counterparts.
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Ben Abrahamson
In the Middle Eastern tradition, law was a code of conduct, not a set of rules to be monitored by police.
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Dan Jacobs
Ben Abrahamson can you elaborate on the essential differences between halachik/shariah concepts of law and punishments vs 'western' concepts?
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Sam Sam
the problem with Muslim countries nowadays , are only by name , they do not practice Islam , they are called Muslim country , but they are ruled by laws of men , there are different between culture, traditions and man laws in one side and religions laws in another side, many if not most of Muslim countries are ruled by tradition and culture more than religion , this why Muslim countries are backward countries because of traditions and culture not religion , go back to the history when Muslims countries ruled by Islam teaching and make comparison, and you find Muslim countries becomes backward after they left the teaching of Islam
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Eddie Elwall
Most people become backwards when they reject God. Shariah, as applied in a legal system is derived by humans making an attempt to implement and define Shariah.
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Eddie Elwall
It is at once an ideal, and abstract.
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Sam Sam
Eddie Elwall I meant about the teaching of Islam not according to human own interpretation but as God tells us by following the holy books and then we will be granted life here and after , for example, one of the most fundamental factor in ruling in the Quran is justice , however , no any ruler in Islamic countries is just, justice is the base for everything ,
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Eddie Elwall
Well, sharia law as it materializes in practice, in a legal system is done with human judgment. Humans look at the sources, try to figure out what the law is and then create a system. It also involves a human interpretation as to what that even means. ie a method for interpreting it.
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Eddie Elwall
As a legal system, it is created through human interpretation of the Islamic sources. This also involves a human interpretation of even if it is to be enforced or not. It's a little bit more complicated than saying "We need to follow the Shariah". Shariah itself is God's law. God's law in the Muslim community has always gone through human interpretation in application in even deciding what is following the law or not.
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Sam Sam
Eddie Elwall I would like to big for small differ, not all sharia laws are interpretation of some people which differ from others, , , many laws are clear, for example, marriage laws, divorce laws, inherit laws, Zakat laws, punishment laws, freedom of other religion laws , ....etc , however , if even there are some differences , you find the country adopt one concept and apply for all , and hence justice is applied ,
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Eddie Elwall
You are not understanding my point.
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Eddie Elwall
The entire STRUCTURE, institutionalization of it as a system is from human interpretation.
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Sam Sam
please excuse me, I just want to learn from u , sorry for my misunderstanding and may this time , I got it right , of course Sharia law will be human interpretation from the law of God , however, human interpretation of the law based on a group of well-knowledgeable people who transfer the law of God to legal law of a country ,
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Eddie Elwall
It's more than that. It is human interpretation on even if humans have the authority to try to do this.
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Eddie Elwall
I am talking theoretically here. But how Sharia law could have looked like in implementation with people could have gone a different route.
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The theory of siyasa shar'iyya, statecraft in accordance with the shari'a, which was developed by Ibn Taymiyya (1328 CE) and further elaborated by his pupil Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (1350CE) had a great impact on Ottoman legal and political theory and was the starting point for Islamic legal and political thinkers. The decision to constitutionalize Islamic law in late twentieth-century Egypt represents a commitment to the idea that state law must be a modern analogue of siyasa shar'iyya.
-
Siyasa literally means ‘statecraft’ or ‘governance.’ The promulgation of rules, the selection of rules of decision for courts and the decision to enforce a particular legal norm all fall under the rubric of siyasa. A ruler’s policies and governmental actions (his siyasa) might naturally be based on non-Islamic considerations. Shar'iyya is the adjectival form of shari'ah describes something that is related to or consistent with the shari'a. Siyasa shar'iyya thus means ‘governance (including legislation and adjudication) in conformity with the shari'a.'
-
Mahmoud Abo AlSamen
However; modern Egypt is based on secular laws except in family affairs.
Constitutionalizing in the Arab world has led to the marginalizing the Shariah Law..
I don't think we are governed by the Shariah law..
-
Ahmad Al Segari
Our Hudud, islamic punishment is similar with the Torah laws, did Jews practice the laws or already abandon it?
-
Ben Abrahamson
@Ahmad Al Segari, religious Jews continue to practice Rabbinic law which is based on Torah law. However except for family law it is voluntary, and the state often tries to reduce it to strictly ceremonial purposes. The issues of halachah and shari'ah in a modern state are very much the same.
-
Ahmad Al Segari
what is punishment for adultery in the Israel? or adultery is not an illegal act..
-
Dan Jacobs
Ahmad Al Segari - the Torah punishment for adultary is stoning however the oral law which is similar to the hadith made the punishment only applicable with two qualified witnesses who warned the woman beforehand so in practice the capital punishment was rarely carried out. Nowadays there is not a Jewish (halachic) court with the power to give the death penalty.
-
Dawah N English
'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' - I am all for 'modernization' except when it comes to the laws of the Creator of the Universe - we were given free will to see when we are obedient, the Mercy of Allah in our choices, but all we use free will for is to be disobedient - Subhana'Allah Allah Protect us from ourselves...ameen....
-
Ben Abrahamson
@Dan Jacobs, We must be careful when comparing systems, even concepts as fundamental as "law" and "punishment" which today are largely understood in terms of Roman civil law and its derivatives, differ in certain ways from their Rabbinic or Islamic counterparts.
-
Ben Abrahamson
In the Middle Eastern tradition, law was a code of conduct, not a set of rules to be monitored by police.
-
Dan Jacobs
Ben Abrahamson can you elaborate on the essential differences between halachik/shariah concepts of law and punishments vs 'western' concepts?
-
Sam Sam
the problem with Muslim countries nowadays , are only by name , they do not practice Islam , they are called Muslim country , but they are ruled by laws of men , there are different between culture, traditions and man laws in one side and religions laws in another side, many if not most of Muslim countries are ruled by tradition and culture more than religion , this why Muslim countries are backward countries because of traditions and culture not religion , go back to the history when Muslims countries ruled by Islam teaching and make comparison, and you find Muslim countries becomes backward after they left the teaching of Islam
-
Eddie Elwall
Most people become backwards when they reject God. Shariah, as applied in a legal system is derived by humans making an attempt to implement and define Shariah.
-
Eddie Elwall
It is at once an ideal, and abstract.
-
Sam Sam
Eddie Elwall I meant about the teaching of Islam not according to human own interpretation but as God tells us by following the holy books and then we will be granted life here and after , for example, one of the most fundamental factor in ruling in the Quran is justice , however , no any ruler in Islamic countries is just, justice is the base for everything ,
-
Eddie Elwall
Well, sharia law as it materializes in practice, in a legal system is done with human judgment. Humans look at the sources, try to figure out what the law is and then create a system. It also involves a human interpretation as to what that even means. ie a method for interpreting it.
-
Eddie Elwall
As a legal system, it is created through human interpretation of the Islamic sources. This also involves a human interpretation of even if it is to be enforced or not. It's a little bit more complicated than saying "We need to follow the Shariah". Shariah itself is God's law. God's law in the Muslim community has always gone through human interpretation in application in even deciding what is following the law or not.
-
Sam Sam
Eddie Elwall I would like to big for small differ, not all sharia laws are interpretation of some people which differ from others, , , many laws are clear, for example, marriage laws, divorce laws, inherit laws, Zakat laws, punishment laws, freedom of other religion laws , ....etc , however , if even there are some differences , you find the country adopt one concept and apply for all , and hence justice is applied ,
-
Eddie Elwall
You are not understanding my point.
-
Eddie Elwall
The entire STRUCTURE, institutionalization of it as a system is from human interpretation.
-
Sam Sam
please excuse me, I just want to learn from u , sorry for my misunderstanding and may this time , I got it right , of course Sharia law will be human interpretation from the law of God , however, human interpretation of the law based on a group of well-knowledgeable people who transfer the law of God to legal law of a country ,
-
Eddie Elwall
It's more than that. It is human interpretation on even if humans have the authority to try to do this.
-
Eddie Elwall
I am talking theoretically here. But how Sharia law could have looked like in implementation with people could have gone a different route.
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